South Foreland 1939

Folkestone Express 11-2-1939

Annual Licensing Sessions

On Wednesday, at the Folkestone Licensing Sessions, the justices had before them applications for the removal of the licences of the Princess Royal in South Street and the South Foreland in Seagate Street to premises, for which there were off licences at present, at Morehall and Cheriton respectively, but they refused both. The proceedings lasted throughout the whole of the day until the early evening.

The South Foreland

The Justices considered the application of Mr. Frank Jordan for the removal of the licence of the South Foreland, Seagate Street, to the Imperial, an off-licence in Ashley Avenue.

Mr. Gerald Theisiger appeared on behalf of Mr. Jordan and Messrs. Mackeson and Co., the owners of the South Foreland and the Imperial, in support of the application. Mr. Rutley Mowll, Mr. B.H. Bonniface, Mr. L. Pocock, and the Rev. W.J.T. Brown appeared in opposition to the application.

Mr. Theisiger said both sites were owned by Messrs. Mackeson and Co. Mr. Jordan had held the licence of the South Foreland for a number of years and was the third generation of his family to do so. There was a slightly increasing trade being carried on at the South Foreland, which was situated in a part of Folkestone served by a num­ber of houses. There were five or six fully licensed houses within 100 yards of it. The population where it was situated was moving out to the north, where they desired that the licence should he removed. Messrs. Mackeson were ready and willing to give the undertaking that if the application was granted the site of the South Foreland would not be used afterwards for a club.

Mr. Bonniface: That would satisfy me and in that event my opposition is withdrawn.

Mr. Theisiger said his clients were satisfied with the trade they were doing at the Imperial, which had a beer off-licence. They were doing a good trade in draught beer. Plans had been pre­pared of the house it was proposed to be erected and in those plans they had not provided for any accommodation for children. He was quite sure if that sort of accommodation was required it could he provided and the matter could be considered at the adjourned sessions. They really did not think such accom­modation was required, but they did think that something was required there in the nature of club premises. Within a circle with a diameter of half a mile there were no other licensed premises. Within three-quarters of d mile there was the White Lion Hotel, and to fly between the two would be 600 yards. There was no question of being able to take a bus from that particular spot to the White Lion. Within a circle of a quarter of a mile diameter there were 180 houses, 15 of them within the last four or five years, within half a mile 726, 202 of them being new, so there were at least 3,000 people in that district. In the circle with a three-quarter mile diameter there were 1,461 houses, 299 of which were new. He wished to hand in a petition signed by 296 people all living within the second circle, and all were to the west of the old borough boundary. In the district immediately to the north of the Imperial, a building estate was being developed and the plans were passed last August by the Folkestone Estate. There were 180 houses at about £600 per house to be erected. The Folkestone Estate welcomed that pro­posal with regard to the licence. In Shaftesbury Avenue, before the end of the summer, about 80 houses would have been completed by the Folkestone Corporation. Customs and Excise, he pointed out to the Magistrates that if they granted the application there would be new rateable value as a result of the alterations that would be carried out.

Commander Findlay, the Managing Director of Messrs. Mackeson, said the trade in beer at the South Foreland had slightly increased over the last three years. At the Imperial, an off-licensed house, the trade in beer was considerable. He knew that customers bought beer at the house and then went outside and drank it. They then came in and bought more beer before going home. He had been informed by, and had had a letter from, Messrs. Smith, Woolley and Co., of the Folkestone Estate, to the effect that plans for the development of a building estate to the north of Tile Kiln. Lane for 180 houses had been prepared. The Corporation were carrying out on a site at Shaftes­bury Avenue building operations, and 20 houses out of 89 had already been completed. There had been consider­able development in this district.

Cross-examined by Mr. Mowll, witness said the Company would be giving up a good trade by removing the licence from near the Harbour. He supposed they were looking at the removal of the licence from a business point of view.

The Clerk read the petition presented by Mr. Theisiger and it stated that the petitioners considered a lull licence was necessary.

Mr. P. Driver, Shaftesbury Avenue, said he was the owner of a dairy business and had lived in the district for 40 years. He supported the application. From his observations be con­sidered it would be far better for people to go into the premises to consume their drink instead of drinking beer on the road outside, mixing with the children and being a nuisance to people passing that way.

Mr. A. D. Dawkins, employed by Messrs. Mackeson and Co., gave evid­ence that he and two others obtained the signatures to tlie petition in favour. The signatures, ho said, were of people who lived to the west of the old borough boundary, and resided chiefly in Ashley Avenue, Shaftesbury Avenue and the cottages in the immediate neighbourhood. At almost every house they obtained a signature.

Mr. Rutley Mowll said he would be very brief. What struck him in that particular case could be described by the remark Mark Twain made when he found that his death was reported the papers, and he wrote and said “It is entirely premature”.

Mr. Pocock, for the Customs and Excise, said the Magistrates must as bitterly resent that application as he did. It was as much his duty to protect the public as theirs. He thought they would realise that there was a tremendous demand in that particular area and it really meant a new licence, as compared with a licence in an area where within 100 yards there were five or six licences. The applicants were seeking to get away from that competition and to go where there was very little competition at all. Definitely they were trying to get something for nothing, and that was unfair. They should pay something into the public pocket for such a removal.

The Rev. W.J.T. Brown presented a petition, bearing 152 signatures, against the application being carried. He said he did not think there was a real demand for that particular kind of house, and he did not think it was desirable that such places as the Imperial should be turned into small clubs. He also spoke of the proximity of two laundries to the Imperial and the temptation it would be to the young people employed in them if there was a public house there instead.

The Chairman, after the Magistrates had considered their decision in private, said the application to remove the licence of the South Foreland was not approved.

Folkestone Herald 11-2-1939

Annual Licensing Sessions

Two applications were made at the annual Folkestone licensing Ses­sions held at the Town Hall on Wednesday, for the re­moval of the licences of two public houses to other pre­mises in the borough. There was a considerable amount of opposition to both proposals, which affected residential districts that have developed rapidly during the past few years. After a lengthy hearing both appli­cations were refused.

The Magistrates heard an application by Messrs. Mackeson and Company, Ltd., for a provisional ordinary removal of the fullv licensed South Foreland, Seagate Street, to the Imperial off-licence premises in Tile Kiln Lane, Cheriton.

The applicants were represented by Mr. Gerald A. Thesiger. The application was opposed by Mr. Rutley Mowll, who appeared for the proprietors of the White Lion Hotel (Messrs. George Beer and Rigden) and Mr. H.T. Samway, the licensee; Mr. B.H. Bonniface, who represented the Folkestone and District Licensed Victuallers’ Association; the Rev. W.J.T. Brown; and Mr. L. Pocock, representing the Customs and Excise. Mr. Bonniface’s opposition was later withdrawn when it was stated that Messrs. Mackeson would give an undertaking that the South Foreland would not afterwards be used as a registered club.

Mr. Thesiger stated that both sites were owned by Messrs. Mackeson and Company Ltd., who were local brewers. Mr. Jordan, who was the licensee of the South Foreland, had held that position for many years and was the third generation of the family to do so. There was a slight increase in the trade of the house, which was situated in a part of Folkestone where there were a number of other houses. There were in fact live or six other licensed premises within a few hundred yards of that site The population of that district was moving to the north and the applicants desired that the licence should follow those people who had been accustomed to taking refreshments, at the South Foreland. It was the desire of the applicants that the working man should treat the premises as a kind of club. In the actual plans of the proposed new build­ing no allowance had been made for a room to be set apart for children, but provision could be made. What was required in that district was a club for men to forget their family worries a little, and he did not think there would be any need for a room for women and children. He had drawn two circles around the Imperial on a map, one with a diameter of a quarter of a mile and the second with a diameter of half a mile. Within the first circle there was no other public house whatsoever and that was also the case in regard to the second circle. A circle with a diameter of three-quarters of a mile did admittedly bring in the White Lion Hotel, but for those in the district of North Cheriton there was no bus to the White Lion and they had to walk. He did not think there were any other material premises within that circle. In the smallest circle there were 180 houses, 15 of which had been built during the past four or five years. In the second circle there were 726 houses, 202 of which were new, and the popu­lation would be roughly 3,000, served only by the existing “off” licence premises. In the largest circle there were 1,461 houses, 299 of which were new, the only fully licensed premises being the White Lion. Mr. Thesiger then produced a petition in favour of the application which, he said, had been signed bv 296 people, all living west of the old boundary.There was, he continued, an estate being developed in north-east Cheriton on which 180 £600 houses were being erected, and the Folkestone Estate, who were developing the land, had no objection to the application. There was also another building site being developed in the neigh­bourhood of Shaftesbury Avenue on which 80 houses were being built.

One would have thought that the case for the temperance opposition would be served by the fact that the Company were providing decent premises. Many people at the present time, after buying their drinks at the “off” licence premises, consumed them in the street.

Commander N.C.M. Findlay, Managing Director of Messrs. Mackeson and Company, Ltd., said that the

Imperial “off” licence had very con­siderable trade. Some of their customers, much against the company's wish, did actually drink their beer outride the premises and then go in again to get warm before going home. He did not think that the granting of a full licence to the Imperial would affect the White Lion Hotel.

Mr. Pocock: You intend to pull down the old premises and build another, don’t you?

Witness: Yes.

How much will it cost? - Between £2,000 and £3,000.

You would not spend that amount and not expect any return? - No, of course not.

You admit there is a great demand there? – Yes.

Philip Driver, Woodfield House, Shaftesbury Avenue, giving evidence in favour of the application, also referred to the fact that drink was consumed outside the “off” premises in the sight of children.

 Arthur E. Dawkins, employed by Messrs. Mackeson gave evidence with regard to collecting names for the petition.

Mr. Mowll said he would quote the words of Mark Twain when he found that he was reported as being dead, said “It is entirely premature”.      

Mr. Pocock said if was as much his duty as the duty of the Bench to protect the public in such cases. They had been told that the South Foreland was within a few hundred yards of five or six other licensed premises where there was competition, and the appli­cants wanted to remove the licence to a place where there was little competition. In other words they were trying to get something for nothing. It seemed to him that it was unfair, unjust and wrong. He considered they should pay monopoly value.

The Rev. W.J.T. Brown said he did not believe there was any real demand for that kind of house in the district, and he did not think it was desirable that they should be turned into clubs. Within a short distance of the Imperial there was a large laundry at which there were many young people employed. Mr. Brown put in a petition against the application, signed by 152 people.

The Magistrates announced that the application would be refused.